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F R O S T F A L L


A Hypothermia, Cold Water, and Camping Survival Mod
For The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Author: Chesko

Contact:
Forums - Chesko
E-mail - chesko.tesmod@gmail.com


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-= DOWNLOADS =-
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http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=11163

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=13685

Localized Versions:
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=17209

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=16986

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=16744
http://modgames.net/load/247-1-0-11688

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=17138

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-= LATEST NEWS =-
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W.A.T.E.R or Get Wet - Water FX users: Please see the compatibility section. Frostfall now includes this shader directly in the mod; you will need to disable the Get Wet - WaterFX plugin from W.A.T.E.R to ensure the proper visual effect is applied. Thanks!

IMPORTANT: The mod no longer starts by itself! You must read a copy of "The Survivor's Guide to Skyrim", a copy of which can be found in any inn in Skyrim.
IMPORTANT: You cannot add the book to your inventory via console; it will break the functionality of the mod. You must go to an inn and pick up the book there.
A note on upgrading: Many users have stated that upgrading using a "clean" save game ensures the best results. To make such a savegame, use the "Shutdown" option from the Survivor's Guide (Configure -> Advanced -> Activate/Shutdown), save your game, uninstall Frostfall, load your savegame, and then >save it again< without Frostfall being present. Then install the new version and load your game.

THANK YOU testers for all the help! Please continue to provide feedback!

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-= WHAT IS FROSTFALL? =-
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The three main components of Frostfall are Hypothermia, Cold Water Survival, and Camping Equipment.

The primary objective of this mod is to add a deep, immersive level of gameplay to Skyrim, while keeping tedium to a minimum. An immersion mod should never get in the way of having fun.

Frostfall uses a sophisticated system to track your location, weather, time of day, worn clothing, and more, to determine your current condition, in a seamless and immersive way. It also features a large variety of craftable camping equipment, including craftable torches. It is highly customizable, and very compatible with most other mods, including worn cloaks, camping, food, timescale, lighting, werewolf, and vampire mods.

Frostfall also now features OpticShooter's Get Wet - Water FX shader from W.A.T.E.R, built directly into Frostfall to enhance the visual effect of being wet from rain or swimming. It is also timed against Frostfall's new game mechanics. (Used with permission)

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-= IMPORTANT =-
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Frostfall is a mod with a lot of new concepts and options, many of which are now configurable. Please take the time to read this post and consult the Help system in-game by opening the Survivor's Guide, and going to Configure -> Advanced -> Help.

Many common issues can now be fixed yourself by opening the Survivor's Guide and navigating to Configure -> Help -> Troubleshooting, and selecting the problem you are having.

While Frostfall now undergoes extensive beta testing before a new release is available, please back up your savegames before you update. A "clean" save without Frostfall being present in the savegame sometimes ensures the best results. If an update causes an issue for you, please contact me via PM or here on the boards and I will work with you as best as I can to help resolve your problem.

If you want / need to disable Frostfall, Frostfall can now be easily enabled and disabled from in-game by opening the Survivor's Guide and navigating to Configure -> Advanced -> Activate/Shutdown. If uninstalling the mod, you must disable/shut it down first using this method. Thanks for reading.

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-= CHANGE LOG =-
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The changelog is located http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/readmes/Frostfall%20-%20Hypothermia%20Camping%20Survival_readme.txt.

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-= GAMEPLAY OVERVIEW =-
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A book, "The Survivor's Guide to Skyrim", must be sought out to start playing with Frostfall. The mod will not start in motion until you find it. You can find a copy tucked away in every inn and tavern in Skyrim. Once acquired, it also serves as your configuration system. Just select, "Rewrite the Guide(Configure)" when reading it, to open the configuration menu. It also explains almost everything on this page, but in an in-world style of writing. Give it a read if you get a chance, and refer to it if you have questions while playing!

After acquiring the Survivor's Guide, the following new game mechanics open up to you:

• Hypothermia - You now have Exposure Points. Cold areas will chill you to the bone; fires, and staying in warmer climes will keep you warm (Riverwood, Falkreath).

• Cold Water Survival - Water has different temperatures based on the location. Riverwood, Falkreath, and the Rift areas are nice and refreshing. The Reach and Whiterun areas have chilly water. The Pale and other snowy locations have frigid water that can kill in a matter of seconds.

• Camping Equipment - To make surviving with the first two points much easier. Adds a craftable tent, cooking pot, and campfire kits. Tents let you sleep outdoors. Fire Kits keep you warm and dry you off. Cooking pots let you cook near a Fire Kit campfire.

You will learn the following new abilities after reading the Survivor's Guide:

• Survival Skills. This allows you to create create survival equipment, including campsite items.

• Weathersense, a power that displays your current Exposure Points, and a description of the surrounding temperature. I recommend you hot-key this ability so you can check your condition at any time! (Messages will also appear without using this ability automatically when your condition changes, or something needs your attention, so don't worry.)

• Inspect Equipment, for advanced users who have W.E.A.R. turned on or are using hardcoe Mode (which includes W.E.A.R.). Allows you to change the exposure protection value of any piece of worn equipment (including armor from mods!)

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-= USING PRESETS =-
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Presets are a great way to configure Frostfall without having to configure individual options. Presets can be changed at any time by opening the Survivor's Guide, and selecting Configure.

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-= GAMEPLAY MECHANICS =-
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==================1. Hypothermia ===================

Exposure Points are the way that your condition is measured in Frostfall. Heat makes you gain them, exposure to cold and icy water makes you lose them. Staying warm and dry makes you lose them less quickly.

You will occasionally receive periodic, non-invasive messages related to your status (getting warmer, colder, wet, being near a fire.) This does not require the use of an item or ability.

Use the Weathersense ability to check your current EP, and the temperature of the surrounding area.

=====Losing Exposure Points

• Location - Where you are in Skyrim greatly affects heat loss due to exposure. Frostfall keeps track of where you are, and what the temperature in the area is. In general, the areas from warmest to coldest are:

Falkreath Hold (warmest)
Eastmarch
The Rift
The Reach
Whiterun Hold
Hjaalmarch
The Northern Coast
The Pale, and Mountains (High Hrothgar, etc) (coldest)

• Weather - Paying attention to the weather can save your life. Your survival time in a blizzard is measured in minutes. Rain and swimming will make you wet and cause you to lose EP more quickly; dry off near a fire, or wait awhile to dry off automatically.

• Staying dry - Getting wet will cause you to lose heat much more rapidly. The wetter you are, the more rapidly your EP can be lost (Damp, Wet, Drenched). You stay wet for a time after swimming, or getting rained on. Fires will dry you off quickly.

• Time of day - Skyrim's nights are more unforgiving than her days. You will lose heat faster at night.

=====Restoring Exposure Points

• Heat sources - This is the only way to restore Exposure Points. Proximity to heat sources (excluding torches) will replenish your EP rather quickly. Use Fire Kits in the field to warm up. Standing near fires long enough also provides you with the "Warm" condition, which increases your total Health, Magicka, and Stamina temporarily.

• Alcohol: Alcohol temporarily restores 15-25 EP (non-stacking), depending on the quality and rarity of the brew, and lasts for 3 minutes. After this effect wears off, you will lose 20-30 EP (5 more than you gained). So, a swig of ale might be good to produce that warm feeling down south when you're away from a fire, or save your life in the frozen north. It's up to you to decide if the short-term benefit is worth the long-term cost.

• Interiors - EP will not be lost in interiors, so taking shelter can be a good idea in some circumstances. Water in interiors will not harm you, either, in the instance that water is used for a thematic or gameplay reason in a dungeon.

=====Staying Warm

• Wear clothing - Running around naked spells death for the foolish. You will receive a bonus to exposure protection for each piece of equipment you wear (Hands, Feet, Head, Body). What kind of clothing or armor does not matter if W.E.A.R. is disabled, it is only important that you have something on. Keep reading if the variable exposure protection of the W.E.A.R. system interests you.

• Frost resistance - Something Nords are born with. Frost resistance will help reduce heat loss.

• Torches, Cloaks, and Food - These items grant a special Exposure Resistance buff, which can -significantly- help extend your survival time).
  
  • Torches - While equipped, grants a 10% Resist Exposure bonus.
    
  • Food - All soups and stews in Skyim grant between 10% and 25% Resist Exposure (non-stacking). Compatible with all food mods.
    
  • Cloaks - If you use http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=12092, your cloak will grant you a 10% Resist Exposure bonus.

Note that none of these items will entirely stop the loss of EP, only give you more time. Cold weather survival is a war of a thousand cuts; no one thing will give you a significant advantage, but together, they add up quickly.

=====Effects of Exposure Point Loss

Losing Exposure Points will cause your character's condition to gradually worsen. You will be automatically notified if your condition changes.

• 120 - 101 EP: Warm: You gain +10 to your maximum Health, Magicka, and Stamina.
  
• 100 - 81 EP: Comfortable: No penalties or bonuses.
  
• 80 - 61 EP: Chilly: -10% Health, Stamina, and Magicka Regeneration.
  
• 60 - 41 EP: Very Cold: -25% Health, Magicka, and Stamina Regeneration; -10 Archery, One-handed, Two-handed, Block, and all Magicka skills; -30 Pickpocket and Lockpicking.
  
• 40 - 21 EP: Freezing: -50% Health, Magicka, and Stamina Regeneration; -30 Archery, One-handed, Two-handed, Block, Sneak, Speech, and all Magicka skills; -60 Pickpocket and Lockpicking. Slight movement penalty.
  
• 21 - 1 EP: Freezing to Death: -75% Health, Magicka, and Stamina Regeneration; -60 Archery, One-handed, Two-handed, Block, Sneak, Speech, and all Magicka skills; -100 Pickpocket and Lockpicking. Significant movement penalty.
  
• 0 EP: You die.

=====Notes on Vampires and Werewolves:

• Vampires, due to their undead nature, shrug off most effects of the cold. A vampire is not harmed by hypothermia or swimming in frigid water; however, if a vampire gets cold enough he will suffer movement (speed) penalties as his limbs begin to freeze, the same as his mortal brethren.

• Werewolves will gain 20 EP when transforming, and 10 EP each time they feed. Their fur is also well-suited to the cold and provides Exposure Protection equal to a full suit of fur armor. Tales of Lycanthropy users: Please see the troubleshooting section.

===============2. Cold Water Survival ================

Bodies of water in Skyrim will now have their own temperature values based on location, ranging from Refreshing to Frigid, with varying levels in between. Jumping in water considered "Frigid" will result in temporary blurred vision, and the loss of all Stamina.

After this happens, you have approximately 30 real seconds (10-minutes in-game) in which to save yourself. If you do not, you will quickly perish.

You can use the Survival Skills-crafted Snowberry Extract to survive in frigid water for up to 3 minutes. A Flamecloak spell works too, but doesn't last as long.

You will only be affected by water if you swim in it - stepping or wading in is fine. Use the temperature of the surrounding area to get a feel for how cold the water will be before you decide to test it.

=================3. Harvesting Wood ==================

Using a Woodcutter's or Poacher's Axe, you can harvest firewood from the surrounding environment. You can only harvest firewood when outside, and when trees are nearby. Just equip the axe to bring up the menu, and select "Harvest Firewood". A shortcutscene will play, and 1 hour in-game will pass. Piles of firewood disappear after 48 hours.

If you don't care for this cutscene, or want a shorter time between harvests, you can use a simpler version by opening the Survivor's Guide, and going to Configure -> Advanced -> Camping -> Wood Harvesting.

=================4. Craftable Survival Equipment ==================

The Survival Skills ability will allow you to craft useful items out of things you may find in the wild. Using the ability will bring up the crafting menu.

• Torch. Components: 1 Firewood, 1 Linen Wrap. Creates a torch.

• Fire Kit: Components: 3 firewood. Burns for 6 hours, and can be rekindled for 2 firewood. Places campfire at location, and restores Exposure Points (EP). Campfires disappear after 48 in-game hours.

• Small Hide Tent: Components: 5 animal pelts of any type. 10 uses. Permits resting with the included bedroll outdoors.

• Large Hide Tent: Components: 12 animal pelts of any type. 20 uses. Permits resting with the included bedroll outdoors.

• Cooking Pot. Components: 1 cast iron pot, 1 wooden ladle. Allows you to cook over a Fire Kit's campfire.

• Snowberry Extract. Components: 15 Snowberries, 1 Eye of Sabrecat, 1 Slaughterfish Egg. Allows you to swim in frigid water for 3 minutes. Tastes terrible.

=================5. Advanced Features ==================

All of these features are accessible via the Survival Guide -> Configure -> Advanced.

W.E.A.R. (Worn Equipment Affects Rate)
This option is enabled automatically when using hardcoe Mode. W.E.A.R. provides the option to allow certain types of armor to provide more or less exposure protection depending on what it is. Protection is broken up into 3 categories; Limited, Standard, and Full.

Limited: Fine for exploring the southern Holds, but completely unsuitable for exploration in the north, or high mountainous elevations.
Armor types in this category are:

• Shirtless Fur
  
• Hide
  
• Studded
  
• Iron
  
• Banded Iron

Standard: Offers all-around generally good exposure protection. Suitable for all but the coldest northern and mountainous regions. Most pieces of gear fall into this category. Special note: Fur without full sleeves is also in this category.

Full: Provides the best exposure protection possible. Only two types of gear fall into this category:

• Fur (with full sleeves), and all types of fur helms, boots, and gloves
  
• Orcish armor.

Use the Inspect Equipment ability to change the protection value of any worn equipment at will. Armor and equipment from other mods default to Standard protection; you can use Inspect Equipment to change their value to a more appropriate one, if desired.

Manual Fire Kit Lighting
This option is enabled automatically when using hardcoe Mode. If enabled, Fire Kits must be lit manually with a flame spell, shout, or torch. To light with a torch, stand over the fire, and "block" with the torch equipped. The fire should catch in a few seconds.

Fast Travel Requirement
This option is enabled automatically when using Classic Mode. If enabled, you will be required to carry a Woodcutter's (or Poacher's) Axe to Fast Travel. Why? Because you will need a feasible way of acquiring firewood and creating campfires along your journey. Fast Travel will be automatically enabled if the Axe is in your inventory.

Fast Travel Toggle
Fast Travel is automatically disabled in hardcoe Mode. This option allows you to enable or completely disable Fast Travel. This takes precedence over "Fast Travel Requirement"; if Fast Travel is Disabled, having a Woodcutter's Axe in your inventory won't help you.

Waiting Outdoors Toggle
This option allows you to enable or completely disable the ability to "Wait" while outdoors. This will also disable your ability to Fast Travel; it cannot be enabled individually. You will still be able to sleep in a tent's bedroll while outdoors.

Water Lethality
This option is enabled automatically when using Classic and hardcoe Mode. If enabled, water that is "Frigid" can kill you in roughly 30 seconds. Use Flamecloak or the Survival Skills-crafted Snowberry Extract to protect yourself from frigid water.

Tent Durability
This option is enabled automatically when using Classic and hardcoe Mode. If enabled, tents will have a limited number of uses according to their size and material cost. A Small Hide Tent will have 10 uses; a Large Hide Tent will have 20 uses. If disabled, tents have unlimited uses.


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-= COMPATIBILITY =-
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Since Frostfall now uses OpticShooter's fantastic Get Wet - Water FX shader directly in the mod, if you are a W.A.T.E.R user, you should disable the Get Wet - Water FX plugin from W.A.T.E.R to ensure your wetness shader effects work properly.

While Frostfall offers a full set of camping equipment, the following popular camping mods are compatible with Frostfall:

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=10573
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=11074

All hunger, thirst, and sleep mods are compatible with Frostfall. Frostfall does not edit any food, drink, or bed objects.

Incompatible with any other Hypothermia-style mods.
May be incompatible with some weather mods that add new weather types.
Tales of Lycanthropy users: Please see the troubleshooting section.
Compatible with all food mods and lighting mods. I do not edit either of these. (In fact, I edit almost no existing game content.)

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-= REQUIREMENTS =-
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None. SKSE or any other programs are not required. Install and enjoy.

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-= TROUBLESHOOTING =-
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Many problems that may arise can now be solved yourself by opening the Survivor's Guide, and navigating to Configure -> Help -> Troubleshooting. The problems that Frostfall can attempt to solve are:

* "I'm always wet / I never get wet."
* "When stepping in water, I die instantly."
* "My skills are all stuck at 0."
* "I'm stuck moving slowly."
* "My Exposure Points won't change."
* "I can't Fast Travel."
* "I can't wait or sleep."

Please let Frostfall try to solve the problem for you. If your problem isn't listed above, or happens frequently, let me know here on the boards or in a PM.

Tales of Lycanthropy:
There is a compatibility issue with Frostfall and Tales of Lycanthropy, wherein transforming will cause you to lose EP very rapidly when in cold locations. If this happens to you, there is a workaround (thanks, Curi0us):

Quote

it can be solved by changing which animation set is used just open the console and use the command 'set lycan_transformationsetting to 3' (switches back to using the default animations).

I can't use the Survivor's Guide! Pressing E does nothing!
Try using the No BSA version. This has cleared up this problem for the majority of users.
It has been reported that using Script Dragon (or more specifically, playing with a save game that once used Script Dragon but Script Dragon is no longer installed) can cause the book to become unactivatable. I do not recommend using Script Dragon at all. SKSE is fine.

Can't use Survival Skills while on land; "Can't craft survival equipment while swimming"
This seems to happen only once, and even then only occasionally, when updating. Here is the fix (Thanks, Fighter Hayabusa):

Quote

I deactivated Frostfall in the config menu (via the Survivor's Guide) then re-activated it. Seems to be working fine now.

I uninstalled Frostfall and now my character is stuck being wet and has all of these terrible status effects that won't go away!
- You did not follow uninstallation instructions. Re-install Frostfall, and use the Shutdown option from the Survivor's Guide -> Configure -> Advanced -> Activate\Shutdown. This procedure should remove all of these effects from your character.

I did not get the Basic Camping Supplies / Weathersense Ring at startup.
As of v1.6, the Basic Camping Supplies no longer exist. It has been replaced by the Survival Skills power and the Survivor's Guide. The Weathersense Ring can still be acquired via Smithing.


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-= FAQ =-
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"Does [fur, etc] armor keep you warmer?" Yes, if the W.E.A.R. feature is enabled. Open the Survivor's Guide, go to Configure -> Advanced -> Immersion -> W.E.A.R. Enable W.E.A.R. to use this feature.

"Do torches warm you?" Torches now provide a 10% bonus to Exposure Resistance.

"Does [xyz] spell restore Exposure Points?" No. See http://www.gameskyrim.com/topic/1363415-rel-frostfall-hypothermia-camping-survival-thread-2/page__view__findpost__p__20587193 for my feelings on this subject.

"How do I swim in frigid water without dying?" Use the Survival Skills-crafted Snowberry Extract to swim in frigid water for 3 minutes. A Flamecloak spell also works, but probably won't last as long.

"Is this mod compatible with LtMattMoo's Camping / Northern Ranger?" Yes it is. They are not packaged with this mod. Try them! And if you don't, you can still use the crafted camping equipment I provide.

"Is this mod compatible with timescale mods / food mods / lighting mods?" Yes.


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-= UNINSTALLING =-
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If upgrading, it is fine to uninstall Frostfall and install the new version.

!IMPORTANT!
!IMPORTANT!
!IMPORTANT!
If completely uninstalling Frostfall:
Please use the new Shutdown system. Open your Survivor's Guide, and select Configure -> Advanced -> Activate/Shutdown, and select Shut Down Frostfall. Failure to do this may result in PERMANENT debilitating status effects against your character. You have been warned.
!IMPORTANT!
!IMPORTANT!
!IMPORTANT!

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-= MANUAL INSTALL =-
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Just put Chesko_Frostfall.esp and Chesko_Frostfall.bsa in your Skyrim\Data directory. Enable Chesko_Frostfall.esp from Data Files in the Skyrim Launcher.

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-= KNOWN ISSUES =-
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Frigid water is not detected when swimming while on horseback.
There is a compatibility issue with Tales of Lycanthropy that can be solved with a console command. See the Troubleshooting section.

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-= THANKS =-
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Thank you to OpticShooter for lending me the use of his fantastic Water FX - Get Wet shader effect.

Thank you to all of the beta testers. Specifically:

Nitor
Spiffyman
Luggage
Knots

Thanks to .sidekick for the inspiration for the ring.

...and everyone in the WIP thread offering ideas, suggestions, and feedback.

...and the countless amount of folks that have offered suggestions, feedback, and extremely valuable beta testing thus far. I wouldn't have been able to make it this far without this kind of support.

...and the fantastic translators, Vladykin and Rayter, for bringing Frostfall to other shores!

Thanks for reading. Let me know what you think, and please offer up any suggestions.

[lucy chadwick]

[KRistina Karlsson]

http://www.gameskyrim.com/topic/1363415-rel-frostfall-hypothermia-camping-survival-thread-2/

For those just tuning in...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fWFPKNzRWs&feature=player_embedded - Coming in 1.6.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv_9kmzQXm4&feature=youtu.be - Coming in 1.6.1

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=16744

[helen buchan]

What's the rationale behind Orcish being the only "full protection" suit of armor? It seems to me like at least Steel Plate (which is explicitly visible fur padding beneath the plate) should also be in the category, and maybe Dwarven, Ebony, and Daedric as well (which leave no skin exposed whatsoever).

Also, what's the difference between standard and full exposure (specifically)? I generally switch to my full-protection fur hood when traveling (as opposed to standard Thieves Guild Hood), and I was curious as to exactly how much of an impact this was having.

Finally, I was having a thought about the "drop items onto an X and stuff happens" (grilling meat, building the campfire... those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head). I think it would be best if the Xes were containers that you place items into via a container menu and then have them appear (a la bookshelves). Actually dropping the item from the inventory and then placing it manually with the "grab" key can be VERY unwieldy.

[zoe]

What's the rationale behind Orcish being the only "full protection" suit of armor? It seems to me like at least Steel Plate (which is explicitly visible fur padding beneath the plate) should also be in the category, and maybe Dwarven, Ebony, and Daedric as well (which leave no skin exposed whatsoever).

It looks quite warm with a lot of woolen elements, and isn't the best in the game. I didn't think that Dragonbone / Daedric needed yet another excuse to be worn; that doesn't offer an interesting gameplay choice. Armor designs that were Cyrodillic-inspired (Steel Plate, Ebony) I reasoned were probably not equipped with the best soft kits in the world and probably didn't offer the greatest protection. If you don't like this, that's what Inspect Equipment is for. Light Armor was an easy decision because Fur was both a low-level set of gear and logically offered the best exposure protection. I didn't have that luxury with Heavy Armor, there were several good and mostly subjective choices. In the end I just had to make a personal decision.

Also, what's the difference between standard and full exposure (specifically)? I generally switch to my full-protection fur hood when traveling (as opposed to standard Thieves Guild Hood), and I was curious as to exactly how much of an impact this was having.

Depends on the equipment slot. I'll answer this in a spoiler tag in a second, as it might get a bit wordy.

Spoiler

When using WEAR, each piece of gear has a numeric value associated with it based on slot and protection value. They are:

Limited:
Body: 1.0
Hands: 0.05
Feet: 0.05
Head: 0.15
Total Protection: 1.25

Standard:
Body: 1.5
Hands: 0.12
Feet: 0.13
Head: 0.35
Total Protection: 2.1

Full:
Body: 2.0
Hands: 0.25
Feet: 0.25
Head: 0.50
Total Protection: 3.0

I realize these numbers are meaningless without being in context of the entire exposure formula, but you can safely conclude that a full helm is 42% better than a Standard helm, and over 200% better than a Limited helm. All things being equal, during an overcast snowstorm (not a blizzard), the difference in survival time between a Standard and Full protection helm is about a minute and a half, if wearing Full gear in the other 3 slots. In a blizzard, it buys you an extra 20ish seconds. Not a huge difference at these extreme temperatures, but the scale is rather exponential, so you'll see a bigger improvement in less extreme weather. A Full vs. a Standard helm in clear weather on the northern coast would buy you an extra 3 minutes.

Exposure was designed as a war of a thousand cuts, so the helm alone won't make a huge difference, as you can see. But a minute here and a minute there add up very quickly.

Finally, I was having a thought about the "drop items onto an X and stuff happens" (grilling meat, building the campfire... those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head). I think it would be best if the Xes were containers that you place items into via a container menu and then have them appear (a la bookshelves). Actually dropping the item from the inventory and then placing it manually with the "grab" key can be VERY unwieldy.

I will make sure that the detected radius is wide enough to catch things dropped when very close by, but small enough to prevent things from falling into the fire inadvertently. A lot of precision won't be necessary. If it doesn't work out, I may go the container route. I'd have to play test it.

Also, if you wouldn't mind, could you answer this question I had from the previous thread?

Out of curiosity, what part about burning inventory items do you find immersion-breaking / not fun / not balanced / etc? You seem to feel pretty strongly about it but haven't gone into why. Or is it just personal preference? (which is also perfectly valid)

[Life long Observer]

Out of curiosity, what part about burning inventory items do you find immersion-breaking / not fun / not balanced / etc? You seem to feel pretty strongly about it but haven't gone into why. Or is it just personal preference? (which is also perfectly valid)

Oh, I missed that from the other thread!

It's not that I really DON'T LIKE the "burning inventory" option (though I do have two objections to it which I will get to). It's just that I think the daily power is so vastly superior a method that even though my feelings toward the former could best be described as "lukewarm," it feels like a damn shame to nix the latter.

My first issue with "burning inventory" is that burning books is a terrible sin and anyone who does it should be shot, JUST LIKE HITLER. That is the silly explanation. The more serious explanation is that books are not usually a thing that anyone carries around. The "burning inventory" option feels to me as though it would just make a player think "I should carry these books JUST IN CASE I need to light a fire and I can't find a tree." And in that case, why wouldn't she just carry some "just-in-case" firewood? I know that books aren't the only items you're considering for this option, but they seem like they would be the most widely-used/-available. Depending on the other items you're thinking of, the same arguments could apply.

My second issue is that it's not limited in the way a daily power is. The hard "once-per-day" greater power thing isn't as realistic, because the idea is you scrounge for enough brush to start a fire. What if you move to a new area two hours later? The model breaks down a bit, because you can't use it again even though you're in a new area with (ostensibly) a new supply of brush. But it's an abstraction, and an acceptable one (to me). This is a just-in-case thing, for emergencies. If you are caught in that position twice within a 24-hour period, you are doing something wrong and I think you should be punished for it.

I am on-board with your philosophy of not being arbitrarily punishing, but some behaviors do merit punishment (like diving into the water north of Winterhold and just hanging out). It's just that the once-per-day is a harder line than "burning inventory items." I think the line needs to be hard. You're caught in a blizzard in the tundra with no trees in sight, no interiors to hide in, and no way to get anywhere safe before freezing to death? You screwed up! So, you get this one chance to survive.

Honestly, I wouldn't object if the greater power were implemented IN ADDITION to the "wood substitute items," but since, again, you could just carry spare firewood, that method seems more like an "alternative" than a "just-in-case you're royally screwed" escape route.

[josie treuberg]

snip

Good points.

Your first point is that it may promote non-immersive behavior. That would be a serious concern of mine. There would be nothing stopping the player carrying extra firewood, it's just weight prohibitive. Under this new system, every campfire is 15lbs. of wood, so it follows that the best and longest-lasting fires will happen near treelines. Since Fire Kits are out, there's no portable heat source that only costs you 5lbs any longer. So if this were done, what would really need to be balanced is the fire heat / duration time based on the fuel you used, and making sure that firewood's performance is vastly superior to anything else you cobble together. The weight/heat output of books should be inferior to firewood to disincentivize it. Like, very inferior. The general feeling should be, "Well, yea, you could burn 15 books and a longbow, but that's only going to be enough to get me 40 EP." Really just not worth it, but could save your life.

I see what you're saying about the greater power. Yes, the model does break down, but I'm OK with that as long as it promotes good gameplay.

I'll have to think about it a bit more and come up with what I feel is a suitable compromise. Re-thinking campfires in this way and getting rid of the simple "3 firewood = campfire" rule in favor of something more abstract, "x amount of y quality fuel = campfire of z duration and quality" is going to require fine-tuning and making sure that the right behaviors are still being promoted, as well as making sure the player understands how this works. It may not end up making enough sense / be too difficult to use and I may just ditch the idea; complexity for complexity's sake is not something I'm a fan of, things need to work simply and intuitively. I'll have to play test it.

If it makes sense to do both a power and burn-all-the-things, then that's what I'll do.

Thank you for the interesting discussion

[Cagla Cali]

On my skim of the first post, on the way down, I noticed you can't add the book to your inventory to start the mod. Does it work with placeatme? (if that's the right command)
If someone's using a non-standard start, and doesn't want to go into an inn (for example, bandit or vampire starts), having this option available would be useful.

[Lucky Girl]

On my skim of the first post, on the way down, I noticed you can't add the book to your inventory to start the mod. Does it work with placeatme? (if that's the right command)
If someone's using a non-standard start, and doesn't want to go into an inn (for example, bandit or vampire starts), having this option available would be useful.

It does, tried that already.

[Cameron Wood]

It does, tried that already.

Probably worth putting that in the disclaimer up top, then.

[Julie Ann]

No, it doesn't. There are scripts attached to those specific activators that have to be run. There is currently no way to start this mod correctly without reading the book, in an inn.

The books in the inns aren't actually books at all; they're activators that look like books that add an actual book to your inventory once their business is done.

Please stop attempting to do this until I re-work how this is handled.

[Wanda Maximoff]

Hi! I've been using this mod for a while, and I'd like to help it expand with a Spanish translation. What can I do to help?

[Peter lopez]

No, it doesn't. There are scripts attached to those specific activators that have to be run. There is currently no way to start this mod correctly without reading the book, in an inn.

The books in the inns aren't actually books at all; they're activators that look like books that add an actual book to your inventory once their business is done.

Please stop attempting to do this until I re-work how this is handled.

That is odd, because I did this with 1.6. Started in a remote location using Live Another Life and used player.additem to give myself a book and then read it, and it opened up the config menu O_o

[Mrs shelly Sugarplum]

Hi! I've been using this mod for a while, and I'd like to help it expand with a Spanish translation. What can I do to help?

I'm honored! Starborsch on Skyrim Nexus has started with on a Spanish translation. You may want to get with him and find out if he needs any assistance.

That is odd, because I did this with 1.6. Started in a remote location using Live Another Life and used player.additem to give myself a book and then read it, and it opened up the config menu O_o

Yes, it did, and it also probably failed to fill the player alias and set a very important variable. It will break a lot of functionality, please don't do this! Trust me! I will allow the player to do this in the next version.

[Lily Evans]

Yes, it did, and it also probably failed to fill the player alias and set a very important variable. It will break a lot of functionality, please don't do this! Trust me! I will allow the player to do this in the next version.

Fair enough, well I'm glad I asked! I hope it'll help clear up any confusion over that.

[Gemma Archer]

Great info, thanks! Doesn't affect my current save in any way anyhow as I only did it with a testsave.

[Raymond J. Ramirez]

Chesko, I want to offer feedback after your reply in the locked prior thread.

Your mod caters to roleplayers. Implementing elements that interfere with roleplaying is a bad idea, in my view, and I am not even sure what the point would be even if you find a certain approach interesting (or more interesting). Most roleplayers do not wait or fast travel because that's not roleplaying. That's true for powers, health, or of course, once a day powers. IMCN is irrelevant and was only offered as an example. Your own mod that is upcoming that intends to offer primary needs concerns would have the same problem as I mentioned for IMCN (i.e., waiting 24 hours for a power to light campfires to recharge creates problems for primary needs regardless of what mod is used, or even if Bethesda implements a "hardcoe" mode in a DLC at some point).

In other words, I was simply pointing out that being forced to use a once a day power to light campfires makes the mod unplayable for pretty much any roleplayer despite its many excellent features. That was my understanding of your suggestion about removing fire kits. If I misunderstood, I'm sure you'll clarify everything with whatever change you eventually make.

[Scared humanity]

AiTenshi1: When he said removing the firekits, he meant that now that you can manually cut down trees for wood, the old way wasn't necessary (it was made before you could cut trees down). But doing it the new way, if there were no trees around, you could make firewood to burn, so you'd have an emergency power to use to scrounge burnable twigs and such to create the fire.

His other suggestion was, in those cases where there are no trees to chop: burn supplies like books or clothes for a makeshift fire. I prefer this method myself, but either way is a reasonable emergency make-shift fire...

[Jennifer Munroe]

In other words, I was simply pointing out that being forced to use a once a day power to light campfires makes the mod unplayable for pretty much any roleplayer despite its many excellent features. That was my understanding of your suggestion about removing fire kits. If I misunderstood, I'm sure you'll clarify everything with whatever change you eventually make.

How? His proposals don't mean you can only light a fire once a day. The "create campfire" is a lesser power, usable at will. You require the wood, of course, which would be dropped into the ring of stones via the vanilla "grab" feature or possibly treating the fire setting as a container and then having the wood appear in the ring (like bookshelves was my example). He'll pick on of these based on how they feel in-game I imagine.

The daily power is to light a fire when you don't have wood. If you're got in an unwooded area without any spare firewood on hand, the daily power is your "emergency backup", an abstraction representing gathering some dry grass, twigs, and other brush to get a fire going. This is not the intended "general use" method of lighting a fire. If there are trees around, you will always be able to light a fire via the lesser power, The greater power is for the "sh*t I got caught unprepared in really bad circumstances" moments, which HOPEFULLY don't happen more than once a day. And if they DO happen more than once a day, you're playing really stupidly in some aspect of the game systems and deserve to be punished by freezing to death.

[Marquis deVille]

I was thinking..

Is it possible to expand the dynamic backpack to become a fully dynamic equiped weapons carry mod..

Ex. make an invisible vest that would have x spots to carry weapons on our backs at all times..
I was thinking two spots on the right shoulder (think withcher 2 swords) and one on the left (think oblivion staffs)..
Also if possible added one on the right belt side for another (one handed weapon)..

So you could have 3 weapons on your back + 2 on your side visible at all times!!

[Rudy Paint fingers]

@AiTenshi1 - Yea, I didn't articulate this well enough. I think we're saying the same thing, we just don't realize it. This is the painful part of "opening my brain" here on the forums when fishing for development feedback, sometimes things get misunderstood or I don't explain them well enough. Let me see if I can sum everything up in a few sentences. (edit: ok, this ended up being more than a few sentences, but I hope this clears up any misunderstanding)

Fire Kits, as an item, have lost a lot of their original purpose. One was as "fast travel currency", and that feature is now gone. The Woodcutter's Axe has replaced it. The other purpose was as a means of creating campfires while far from town, because before Wood Harvesting, the only way to get firewood was by using a chopping block. That restriction is now gone as well; if you're near a treeline, you can use your axe to get wood immediately. Now, being prepared really just means, "don't forget your axe."

Since Fire Kits don't have a lot of their original meaning any longer, I figured they needed to go. Since building a campfire is really just an activity, I decided to move this action over to a lesser power, "Build Campfire", that can be used as many times as you like, but still requires fuel to be useful.

Well, since we aren't using Fire Kits anymore, the amount of inventory weight required to make a campfire just went up 10lbs, up to 15lbs. for 3 pieces of firewood. (And this number may increase still!) This incentivizes camping near treelines where wood is plentiful, and disincentivizes carrying a bunch of wood with you. It's reasonable to say that the player may not want to carry much firewood on their persons, if at all. Even relegating it to a follower has its drawbacks, that's less room on the follower to carry loot. What do to, then, if the player is far from trees and in a real tight spot freezing their buns off? Do I hang them out to dry, or is this an opportunity for more immersive options and interesting player choices?

This is where we enter the current discussion of either a special once-per-day power to "gather spare limbs and underbrush" and use that to make a fire absent of any firewood, and / or developing a system whereby the player can burn pretty much whatever flammable items they have in their inventory. These would be emergency-use situations and would not be the primary means of starting and using campfires.

Sorry if I said anything without fully understanding where you were coming from.

After thinking on it overnight, I think both of these options are viable at the same time if balanced correctly. One of those ways is the opportunity for failure; the daily power may not yield anything, or not very much to help you; or it may yield more than enough. So you have a chance to redeem yourself for not being prepared, but it's still just a chance, which I think retains the element of fear and keeps the tension higher than a 100% get-out-of-jail-free card. The other way is making burnable items just not very economical from an output/weight standpoint. It would be something you can do, but not something you're going to want to do. To wit, carrying 15lbs. of firewood should result in a longer, better fire than 15lbs. of books.

And as always I really appreciate all of the feedback that everyone gives me here, it helps more than you probably realize.

[Marcia Renton]

I was thinking.. Is it possible to expand the dynamic backpack to become a fully dynamic equiped weapons carry mod..

A man after my own heart. You have no idea how much I'd like to do something exactly like this. Unfortunately my current method involves swapping in and out static models, which means I need a model for every possibility in the possibility matrix. With 3 "displayable" items, that means I need 3x3 = 9 different models, times 3 again because there's 3 different colors of backpack. So we're up to 27 models just for that. It's a lot of work, but I can do that; I've already got it working for one color.

If we increase it to 4, now we're talking about 4x4x3 = 48 models. You can see how quickly this gets out of hand.

I have performed experiments trying to "attach" objects to the player using scripting (http://www.creationkit.com/AddHavokBallAndSocketConstraint_-_Game) but was unsuccessful; I tried to attach a piece of cabbage to the player's hand, and the function returned TRUE even though the cabbage fell to the ground. Maybe I just don't understand it well enough yet, or maybe it just doesn't work on the player. If I could make that work.... sky's the limit. But I wouldn't count on this.

[Ella Loapaga]

Cross-post from the Nexus thread, but I felt it was worth posting since it's on-topic.

Spending this morning working on the new campfire system. Things got complex rather quickly and I'm trying to get things simple again. Opening up the idea that anything from your inventory, if flammable, could act as a fuel (cloth, clothes, books, etc) really opened a new can of worms, and I'm trying to come up with a universal method of determining how good different items are as a fuel source, something that isn't arbitrary and is easily understood by the player.

Firewood is and will continue to be superior to anything you could scrounge together, from an output/weight perspective. This may also give me the opportunity to make campfires a bit smaller (as myself and others have suggested). The intended use is as an emergency heat source when away from trees and you don't happen to have firewood.

I'm still evaluating it, in the end it may not work out, but hopefully it will. I'm still open to suggestions here. I'm thinking that the weight of the item will play an important role in how long it lasts. Such a system will also require me to do a much better job of telling the player how much longer the fire will last based on the fuel they've supplied. Perhaps I can use light to do this; a roaring fire will output a lot of light and heat, whereas a fire about to die out has a withering flame, and not much light comes from it.

Fueling the fire could happen one of two ways; either the player uses it like a container, a la bookshelves, they move the items they want to burn into the container, and they appear on the fire. This method is more deliberate, but involves more menu-based fiddly-bits that I'm trying to minimize. The other way would be to simply drop them when very close to the fire and my script will "catch" them and drop them on the fire without a lot of precision on the player's part. This is less deliberate but hopefully people don't already have the bad habit of dropping things near a fire.

If automatic fire lighting is turned on, creating a campfire location will attempt to use firewood from the player's inventory, if present, and start the fire automatically. If manual firekit lighting is enabled, creating a campfire location will still attempt to take firewood from the player's inventory, if present, but the fire will start unlit. So if you have firewood in your inventory, this system will still feel the same as it did before. You'll just have more flexibility.

I'd also like to crush a bug wherein the player can use a cooking pot after the campfire burns out. Ice and wind spells / shouts should also put fires out. Starting a fire in the rain should be (almost?) impossible, and in snow, more difficult.

[Charles Mckinna]

A man after my own heart. You have no idea how much I'd like to do something exactly like this. Unfortunately my current method involves swapping in and out static models, which means I need a model for every possibility in the possibility matrix. With 3 "displayable" items, that means I need 3x3 = 9 different models, times 3 again because there's 3 different colors of backpack. So we're up to 27 models just for that. It's a lot of work, but I can do that; I've already got it working for one color.

If we increase it to 4, now we're talking about 4x4x3 = 48 models. You can see how quickly this gets out of hand.

Well if it is possible that the "backpack" is invisible like I said (has no actual model shown on character) it is only "one colour"..
Which drops the number of combinations by a lot..

But I understand it's a huge and a complicated project..

[Jason Wolf]

Chesko: I've been following http://www.gameskyrim.com/topic/1371668-relwip-limiteditems/page__view__findpost__p__20762043 which incorporates a volume system to inventory management. The author is in the process of having the bandolier mod, and more importantly, the sabre cat backpack increase the volume of items you can carry (as opposed to increasing the weight you can carry). Since you are going to use that backpack in your mod, I thought maybe you'd like to know about this new interaction (note that it does not change or conflict, it just detects if you have the backpack).